213 - Depression, Suicidal Ideations, and Radical Acceptance with Dr. Laurie Bruce

Had a great time talking with Dr. Laurie Bruce this week about my old nemesis depression. We cover depression, suicidal ideations, and one of her DBT strategies of radical acceptance. This was a very helpful conversation for me, and I hope you get something out of it! 

Suicide Prevention Numbers:

In the US - Dial 988

you can also visit https://988lifeline.org/

And here is a list of suicide hotlines in various countries, compiled by Psychology Today. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/suicide/suicide-prevention-hotlines-resources-worldwide

For more information on Dr. Laurie Bruce, and to listen to her podcast "From Both Sides of the Couch", visit https://www.drlauriebruce.com/

You can also search for "From Both Sides of the Couch" on your favorite podcast platform, and you'll find her! 

Dr. Laurie Bruce Bio
Dr. Bruce is a clinical psychologist and mindfulness coach. She specializes in a type of therapy called Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), which is a treatment that combines both traditional cognitive and behavioral strategies with Eastern Mindfulness practices. She is also a Certified Psychedelic Assisted Psychotherapist. 

Dr. Bruce is passionate about reducing the stigma of mental illness and sharing resources to the public about mental health, resilience, emotional intelligence, healthy relationships and developing meaning and purpose in our lives. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I used to be really nervous at the idea of having an episode that touches on like the dark side of depression, you know, like the suicidal ideations. Um I love that I just called I love that I said the dark side of depression. Like what's the light side? You know, what's the glass half full on this one? That's so dumb. Uh anyway, okay. But this whole mental health report uh thingy that we do each week has been it I it's been working for me. It's normalizing it for me at least. Um so let's let's talk about depression. But let's bring in a pro. All right, here we go. Their comorbid depression, their own. Oh, it's just a I'm your host of your ADHD brother Russia. I've got to be too. I've got depression as well. It's crap after. So let's learn some stuff. Let's laugh at some stuff. Let's make some commitments to do some stuff. Ladies and gentlemen, here's some stuff. Welcome to the podcast. Hi. How you doing? You doing? You doing? I'm doing. I'm doing too. Cool. Hey, let's that's oh god. Hey, let's do some businessy stuff uh before we jump into the swamp lands. I still have one uh slot left for one-on-one work. I opened up five spots recently, five new spots. We banged them out pretty quick. So there's one more. If you need a productivity coach for your ADHD, if you're stuck, if you need help getting unstuck and you would like to experience the confidence, the boost that you get when you are consistent, uh, that's me. I'm your guy for that. You can click on the link in the show notes to book a call and we will see if it's a good fit. Uh other things that we have three available spots uh in the ongoing consistency crew. I'm a big fan of consistency, can you tell? Uh it's a group that meets every Monday at 1 p.m. Pacific time, and it's productivity and accountability. We make plans, we talk about what works, doesn't work, we make commitments for the week, and we support each other. Uh, it is a tier of the ADHD Big Brother community, so when you sign up for that, you also get the entirety of the community. It's that's part of it. So you do have to apply though, so reach out, book free chat. Same old, same old. We'll see if it's right. Um, and then we have unlimited openings in the ADHD Big Brother community for limited time only, unlimited memberships available. This is where you get unstuck and consistent with others. We're right around 60 members at the time of this recording. If you're looking for your people, man, if you're looking for ongoing support, community challenges, daily accountability, expert workshops, body doubling, weekly support calls. I'm now realizing why I'm so tired. Uh bi-monthly goals, book clubs. This is why I'm exhausted. Jesus. Right now it's like a little over a buck fifty uh a day to be a member. I remember when we started this. Holy shit. It was 15 bucks a month when we started. But we still have members that have been there since the beginning. Um they're still showing up every single day. Business wise, I think people would say that it's not the best business thing for me because I put it cost me the most to do it, and it takes up most of my time. But it's where my heart lives. But anyway, I'm teetering on sustainability, so the price is gonna go up at some point um to new people, not anybody that's in the uh currently members. So I just don't I don't believe in that practice of you know, whatever you join at is what you stay at. So so there you go. That there's my bullshitty clock countdown thing, those things that I hate. Uh get in before midnight. I'm like, whatever. Uh I I don't know when it's gonna go up. I'm just sharing my headspace with you. Uh I tend to be impulsive on stuff like that. So we'll we'll see. But if you've ever been on the fence about joining the community, man, and what it can do, try it now. Do it now before it goes up. Get in. And then you can always, or you can always book a free chat with me and uh ask me questions about it. I'm literally here to help if I can. I've tacked people out of it. You know what I'm saying? If it's if it's not right for you, it's not right for you. Uh, you do have to be willing to log in. Uh, but the people that are logging in, holy balls, and it is spend they're benefiting. So there you have it. Links are in the show notes. Uh mental health report. The mental health report is I'm tired. And I think I see why. Uh but actually I think that's the physical report, right? That's not the mental health report. Um you know what I've been doing is a fair bit of radical acceptance practice, DIY style, which is great, and that's what Dr. Bruce talks about in this episode. I've noticed the most in moments when I get overwhelmed. Uh, that's when I tend to get to that place where I beat myself up because I'm not making a choice. The calm on the other end of fighting the overwhelm, you know, just accepting it, that has been very interesting. It's been positive. So for my mental health, I'm good. I'm tired, but I'm good. I'm super grateful for the We Win Together challenge that Louvet created in the community. That's like that's getting me to do my meditating, my walking, my exercise. So uh, I mean, accountability for that stuff is just great. And then Fork, yeah, season two is coming up. And I didn't play that one on the first season, it was too much. But it's a food health challenge that uh uh our Aussie member, Mick, spearheaded. Uh it's a good food challenge. So I'm gonna jump into that one this year this upcoming season. Um, I love how they're there's seasons, like the we're doing these like episodics. Season two of the fork yeah challenge. Alrighty, that's the business and that's the brain stuff. Let's talk depression. Let's go there. Do you want to go there with me? I really enjoy the conversations that I have with Dr. Lori Bruce. She was on the podcast a couple months ago talking about various therapy modalities. Super interesting, always enlightening. And today she's come back to talk about depression. We talk about the suicide stuff. I share a little bit about my own ideating times. So it may or may not be heavy for you, triggering, or you know, but just so you know, just put it out there. But I got a lot out of it and uh was even educated on the power of the suicide hotlines because I had a different viewpoint of them, and she changed that. So um, because we're a global podcast, I have included a link to the hotlines in various countries. That's all in the show notes, and along with ours, the one that we have in the U.S. is just 988. Um, so there you go. And so then just so we are all on the same page, I'm not a therapist. Dr. Lori uh is a clinical psychologist. I'm coming from the lens of my own brain, my own situation, and my own dealings with depression. Everybody is unique and different, so take that as you will. All right, let's talk about Dr. Lori Bruce. She is a clinical psychologist and mindfulness coach. She specializes in a type of therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, which is a treatment that combines both traditional cognitive and behavioral strategies with Eastern mindfulness practices. She is also a certified psychedelic assistant psychotherapist. Dr. Bruce is passionate about reducing the stigma of mental illness and sharing resources to the public about mental health, resilience, emotional intelligence, healthy relationships, and developing meaning and purpose in our lives. She hosts the kickbutt podcast from both sides of the couch, available on all your fun podcasty platforms. Alrighty. There you go. Shall we? After you.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

If a client comes to me and they're really depressed and they're not on an antidepressant, I always refer them to meet with a psychiatrist because the research is pretty clear that the combination of talk therapy and medications are the most effective or the gold standard of treatment.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Okay. And so thinking about uh diagnosis in your office, like are there red flags to be like, oh yeah, like what are you looking for when you're diagnosing?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

So when we are doing, when we're making a diagnosis, there's our um the Bible, so it's called is the DSM. It's like an actual uh book, very, very thick. Um, and people need to meet very, very specific criteria in order for me to give them the formal diagnosis of major depressive disorder. So there are five criteria, and somebody needs to have, or actually, I I could go back and look at it. I don't have it memorized off the top of my head, but I believe there's like seven criteria, and you need to meet five of the seven for more than two weeks at a time. That's mostly right. I'd have to go back and look. Um, but essentially the things that I'm looking for is on most days the person is feeling sad, down or blue. They have that subjective feeling of feeling depressed. It's affecting their sleep, either they're having trouble sleeping or they're sleeping too much. It's affecting their appetite, so either they're not eating enough or they're eating too much.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

It's affecting their energy level, so they're either very, very fatigued or very restless. So it's kind of like you can see either of these on both ends of the continuum.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Um, usually it affects people's cognition, so it's affecting your memory, your focus, your concentration. And certainly the biggest red flag that we have to look out for is any thoughts of death, dying, or any thoughts of ending their life. Those are the biggest, obviously, um, concern and biggest red flag for major depression.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, that's that that's where things get really scary. Like where you're like, oh, I don't know if we can talk about. So I I like where does that fit in terms of, you know, I I'm just gonna speak for myself because I'll just share my own skull spaghetti. I don't care. But in in my ideation moments, right, it's I'll I'll say these days, right? Because back in the day it was different. But these days, it's there's no necessarily there's not an ideation of like I gotta get out, but it's uh uh wouldn't it be wouldn't it be easier if or something like that? Do you know what I mean? Like if you go, oh if if we went into the if we went into the 7-Eleven, God, I hope somebody's robbing it with a gun, because then maybe I could just jump in front of it or something. It's it's a bit morbid, right?

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, it is a little bit dark, but I do think it's really important to be able to comfortably talk about this. Yeah. Um, that agreed for regular folk, this is a really, really hard conversation to have. It's really hard sometimes for clients to be open. Their biggest fear is they're gonna say something which is gonna get them locked up. And so oftentimes clients are really hesitant to say anything. Um, but as a therapist, you've got to get comfortable with talking about thoughts of death or dying, hurting yourself, ending your life, hurting someone else. You just have to get comfortable with having those conversations. Um, and so yeah, it's a little dark, but it's still worth noting that we have different kinds of ideation. We can have what's called passive suicidal ideation or active suicidal ideation. Passive suicidal ideation is the just like you said, um, it wouldn't be a horrible thing if all of a sudden my car just went off the road and I got into an accident. It wouldn't be a bad thing. Oftentimes people will say to me, I wish I could just fall asleep and never wake up. You know, it's like, yeah, if this happened to me, I'm not gonna be mad about it, but I'm not actually going to do anything. Whereas active SI is when someone is thinking, like, okay, if I were gonna do it, what would I do? They often have a plan or a rough idea of a plan. Some folks are, you know, big red flags that I start asking for. Have you made any preparations? Have you written any goodbye notes? Started thinking about your belongings, you know, these are things that um when we start shifting from passive to active, that people are gonna do. What I think is really interesting though is for those people with ADHD are at much higher risk for having depression. I mean, somewhere like three to five times greater than folks without ADHD. So ADHD and depression very often go together. One of the challenges in working with folks with ADHD that occasionally have suicidal thoughts is the impulsivity. Often folks with ADHD don't plan so much as they have a horrible day or a horrible experience and then impulsively think life would be better off without me. Um, versus folks without ADHD who don't have that impulsivity are more likely to be able to sort of manage the ups and downs of their depression and not impulsively do something to hurt themselves. So I think it's a hot you're at a higher risk when you have both ADHD and severe depression.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, that's the that's the scary thing uh when I think about it, is like, you know, if you're driving on the freeway and you're just a moment, you're just a flicker of an impulsive. So having that impulse control, which is missing, um, that's uh I I really feel for I guess the the community in general. And yeah, the struggle of depression. So what when does when does somebody uh here's what I would be wondering? Um, is I'm in a moment of not knowing, like I'm am I ideating, am I not? Is this uh I thought about it, but I didn't, I don't know if it's a real doable plan or blah blah blah blah blah. What do I do if I like go oh red flag? I'm red flagging myself. Because I I I don't know about me, but I'm uh I don't know about you, but like the the call a hotline to me is it's not really something I I think I would do, but I'm I'm just me, right? So this this number, which I will absolutely have in the show notes, uh because of what we're talking about, but what's a what's a real thing I could do outside of that?

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Um the first thing that I would say is if you have ever, ever, ever even had passive suicidal ideation, the thought uh I'd be better off, or or just a sense of hopelessness about the future, that's enough of a red flag that you need to seek professional assistance. Okay, that's not something that you should be managing on your own. So even if it's never gone into that active stage, the fact that you're having passive thoughts or just a feeling of hopelessness and helplessness, that in and of itself warrants professional assistance of either talking to your primary care doctor, getting a therapist, or getting a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah, that was kind of gonna be my follow-up is okay, that's gonna be very, very hard for me to do if I'm bedridden with depression, is to call. So, what's the specific task? Uh, email my primary care person and say, I need a therapist, give me recommendations.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Or yep, email, call um my chart message, whatever access you have. Primary care doctors almost always. I've never met a primary care doctor that doesn't have a list of therapists that they can refer to. Um, and so I would say we all have primary care doctors, almost all of us have primary care doctors, and that is a good entry point to say, hey, look, I'm in a really bad head space, and the doctor will want to meet with you. Um, you know, even if they don't prescribe a medication, um, they'll want to meet with you to talk to you, to let you know you're not alone and that there is treatment and there is help. What I also try to remind folks who ever have these types of thoughts is that suicide is a long-term solution to a short-term problem. The thoughts of suicide are fleeting. The thoughts, they're always fleeting, just like any other thought that we have. They come and go and we can observe them. I teach a lot about the concept of mindfulness. Can we watch a thought pop into our head and watch it leave, not get attached to it, not grab it, not hold on to it, not nurture it, not fuel it?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Oh man.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Can we just see that thought pop like a cloud in the sky and then pass along like a cloud in the sky? And so that's kind of how we manage. There are some people who live with suicidal thoughts chronically. They just live this way. Um, and that's one of the ways that we can cope with it. Hey, it's just a thought, it's not real, it's not truth. It will come and it will pass, and we don't need to give a solution to a short-term problem.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

God, that's so that's profound to me, right? The it's the God, it's so hard sometimes to not attach your self-worth to a thought that feels true, like you're a piece of shit, loser. Right. And it's so hard to go when you intrinsically, when your core is so on board with believing it, oh god, that that work is tough.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

It is, it is. I like to remind myself when I'm having those types of thoughts, I suck, I'm worthless, what's the point? Is to remind myself that any thought that I have that leads me to feel despair cannot be true. And when we're healthy and when we're not in a depressive place, we know this to be true. Okay, we know it with certainty. But when we are depressed, the our truth is changed. Um, what feels real to us, our reality feels different. And so that can be sort of our litmus test. Okay, this thought that I just had, does that make me feel hopeful or does that make me feel despair? And if the answer is, no, that feels pretty despairing, then it must not be true because there is no reality where just that we are living in where despair is warranted. Even in the most challenging of life circumstances, despair is not warranted.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

We hate despair. We are not on board with despair. Down, that's right, down with despair. Despair can suck it. Okay, so that's right. So the my takeaway then here is for for this, is this is not a fight to get in with my brain because I my brain will win, and it's just why get into that. But my idea is if if I can establish, okay, this is a thought of despair, I know it's bullshit. Now I do the mindfulness techniques that you're talking about of watch it pass with like a cloud. So I relate to this, and I we spoke about this last time. It's even though. So, like, even though that's true for me right now, and but I've determined it's despair, even though I'm gonna now move forward and do a thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yes, I love that. Even though it feels like my situation is hopeless and I feel despair, I know logically that it is not true. And this feel. Will pass. And this is not a permanent state. And I just have to wait it out. And sometimes the more we try to change it, you know, we do all of these interventions and make our little thought record. And this is my thought. And what's the challenge to the thought? Sometimes that actually makes it worse. Sometimes it's helpful. And by all means, if it's helpful, do it. But for many of us, it actually can kind of make it worse because now we're latching onto it. Now we're holding on to it. Versus just watching those thoughts, like uh, you know, what is that on TV when you have the captions on the bottom? Closed captioning, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

The oh, the closed captioning, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

The closed captioning on the bottom because now I'm now that I'm in my 50s, I'm deaf. I can't hear anything that they're saying on TV shows. So I have to put closed captioning on everything. What did they just say? What's going on? Like that's how we want to think of our thoughts, or like the closed captioning. We're just gonna read it and we're gonna let them pass.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

That's awesome. And to closed captioning, my girlfriend got me into that. Now I watch everything with closed captioning, and it is great, it is nice. Yeah, especially when you have kids, can't go back and and things happening around you. The only time it sucks is when you're watching any kind of a sport, like what you're watching soccer or something, and they are running uh with the soccer ball right where the announcer is talking, and so that it the text covers it. This is a side note. That's my hang up.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, with close yes, that sucks. Yes. I thought you were gonna say that it says running, like on the bottom.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

I don't need to know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

That is why are they doing that?

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Why do I need to know what I'm seeing? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, it's really and it's hard. It's hard to talk about depression, it's not very uplifting, it's not very um, you know, it's it's hard to have these kinds of conversations, but also really, really necessary because so many of us feel shame about our depression. We feel shame about our anxiety, and that's and the urge when we feel shame is to pull away and to hide and to avoid, to isolate. And those are the very things we need not to do when we're feeling depressed, when we're feeling overwhelmed with life.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Totally. I totally uh am on board with that. I have uh I think I've I've talked about this a number of times. I have like a core four of people that's these are four people that know I have depression and that I can call whenever. So they are my kind of lifeline. If I, you know, if I can call them at two in the morning and just be like, hey, I'm going through it. I have never, I've never uh I've never would have made good on that. Um, but it's for some reason it's just nice to know that it's there. That to me is super, super helpful.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Oh, it is incredibly powerful. And you are very blessed and fortunate and just part of your great personality, which is why you have that. What I would say is that not everybody is blessed with that. And although you might not feel like, oh, I could never call a hotline, I actually have a lot of clients who do use hotlines and find them to be tremendously useful. Yeah. Okay. But the people who staff, people who staff the hotlines, they're not there to solve your problem. That they're not therapists necessarily. Um, but they are there to just be there, to just listen, to provide empathy and support. And sometimes that's all you need when you feel like you are completely alone with these thoughts. Sometimes just reaching out to another human being and saying, Hey, I'm really hurting and I don't know what to do. Um, and having that connection, another human connection can be enough just to get you through another day. So I actually do have a lot of folks who use the hotlines.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

That's awesome. And that's really helpful for me to hear because I'm just one person with one opinion. Can you sell me on that then? About when because my follow-up question to all this was like, okay, what if I have no money? I can't go to a doctor, I can't do anything. So this hotline then maybe seems like a uh a great idea. But can you just talk about what are your options if you have no options? There's not a penny in your wallet.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

Yeah, great question. Um, what I would say if you don't have a penny in your wallet, we do we do have insurance for um for folks who don't make any money. Um, and based upon your earnings, that insurance can be even you know, even free. So I think the way we have set up our healthcare in America right now sucks, but it could be worse. Um it could be worse. So right now, we everybody has the option to be able to get some form of health insurance, even if it's shitty. Um, and there are typically in every city um free clinics, community mental health centers that offer reduced fees or fee reductions. I used to work at a community mental health center where they would charge $3 to meet with me. Um, and so one of the biggest risks I worry for people are in the more rural areas where it might take, you know, an hour to drive to a place like that, and maybe they don't have a car. And so thank goodness now we have telehealth. Um, I don't want to say that we have a plethora of options because we don't, but we do have some available options. Um, and a a free suicide hotline to me is a band-aid. It's something to help you get through a dark time, but certainly not anything that you would want to rely on for ongoing care.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Okay. So that's your um, that's what they could go to in a pinch, right? Is this hotline for uh another human being for empathy, for support in the moment. Um it's not ongoing. I what like you said, what can people DIY? What can people take away? Like what can they practice? What can they do at home? A lot of this stuff I know is you do this stuff when you're not depressed, right? Yeah so that the the skills are there when you when when you hit. I mean, I have a mindfulness meditation practice. Um, I have certain things that I'll do, but I still, I mean, we talked about this offline. August was like shitty for me. It was awful. So it doesn't even it doesn't even matter. But what would be some things that you would recommend?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So I agree with you 100% that the time to do it is when you're feeling good. Okay, because when we're not feeling good, it's hard to focus, it's hard to concentrate, it's hard to be willing to learn anything. So if we can we can learn these skills when we're feeling well enough, that will help prepare us for the inevitable. And if you have a history of depressive episodes, uh more than two depressive episodes, research shows you have about a 90% chance that you're gonna have another. So the more episodes you have, the more likely you're going to continue to have them, particularly without treatment. Um so um I think for me, of course, I'm biased. My training is in a type of therapy called DBT or dialectical behavior therapy. But one of the things that I love about the awesomeness of YouTube is that there are many, many providers out there that are actually teaching DBT skills on YouTube. And so one of the possible things you could do if if it's not feasible for you to join a DBT group, you could actually go on YouTube and still just watch videos of a therapist teaching you the skills. And in DBT, they talk about skills that help you in a crisis, skills that help you ask for help, skills that have um help you regulate your mood so you have less ups and downs, and skills related to mindfulness and being present. So I think if if that would be that would be the number one thing that I would suggest that people do if they really can't afford a therapist at this time. Well, at the very least, you could get yourself equipped to learn some DBT skills. And all of that, it's been around long enough that there they don't do the same copyright protections that they might have done back in the day. Now all of all of the handouts and everything are free and readily available, and there are enough folks on YouTube teaching it.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

And you know, honestly, people are going to be on YouTube anyways. They I mean, we are historically binge watching YouTube. So why don't we binge watch some DBT exercises?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And here's another little nugget I'll just add.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

Um, dbt, traditional DBT is for folks who generally have lots of ups and downs with their mood and impulsivity. And a lot of the things that we also think about with ADHD. Okay. So we talk about DBT as being for folks who are undercontrolled, people who um have ups and downs with their mood, ups and downs with their behavior, ups and downs with their attention and their focus and their concentration. So they're dregulated, under controlled. So that's where DBT is most useful for. We do have another subset of folks. Typically, they don't have ADHD. So I don't know how many of your listeners are going to identify with this, but I'll just throw it out there. We have another subset of folks that we call over-controlled. Over-controlled folks don't have the ups and downs and they don't have the impulsivity. They actually work really hard to make everything have a plan, have a structure, have a purpose. They need things to be uh exact in a certain way. They want it to be a certain way, and when it doesn't go that way, they really, really get upset. So for those folks, there's actually uh a type of treatment called RODBT or radically open dbt. So whereas traditional dbt is kind of like helping bring people, get a little bit more control, control over your emotion, control over your relationships, our oddbt does the other, the opposite, where it's actually helping, helping, helping you to it's helping you to let go of the needs for control, let go of the needs to, you know, plan, make it perfect, make keep things rigid. It teaches flexibility and openness, openness to being wrong, humility, all of these things that are really hard for folks with overcontrolled temperaments. So if any of your listeners think, well, you know, I don't have these ups and downs, I have the opposite. I feel like I can never let anything go. You could also go on YouTube and type in R O D B T and learn those skills, which is a different set of skills.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Is there a uh an exercise? I mean, maybe we can Google it or do or YouTube it, but that you would that you could uh like something that we could I I like leaving with a challenge. Like, what can us depressos do? What can we do in the DBT landscape as a fun little thing to do?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Mm-hmm. Oh my god, so many. Where would I even begin?

SPEAKER_00 34:11

That would permanently end our depression forever, yeah. And cure us of our ADHD and all our neurons fire exactly in accordance to how we want them to. Go ahead. What is that exercise?

SPEAKER_01 34:27

I so wish, I so wish. What I will say is as everyone knows, depression and ADHD are not curable conditions.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Um what I do think out of all the skills in DBT, and there are hundreds of them, I would say that there's one skill that has helped me the most personally. And usually when I teach it to my folks, they say, wow, that it is very helpful.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

So the skill is called radical acceptance. Have you ever heard that one before?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

I've heard the term, but you're gonna have to educate me.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Okay, all right. That's what I'm here for. So radical acceptance, two parts. First is radical, meaning whole, complete, entirely, not 99%, but 100%. Okay, that's radical. The accept the second piece is acceptance. And what do I mean by acceptance? I mean that I'm going to let go of the need for my reality to be different than it is. So radical acceptance means I completely and totally in this moment allow reality to be as it is, and I'm going to stop fighting my reality. I'm going to stop fighting those things that I cannot control. And I'm going to allow my reality to be as it is. So if we're depressed and we're stuck and we're in our bed, we can either choose to say, this sucks, it's not fair. I never should, I wish I were never born. Why does it always have to happen to me? I'm never gonna get out of this place. Like that is the definition of suffering when we are fighting against our reality. Radical acceptance is okay, in this moment, I am so depressed, I am stuck in this bed. So I am. I am I'm in this bed and I feel like crap. So this is my reality. I'm not gonna fight it because I can't. There's nothing I can do to fix it. I'm gonna allow it and I'm gonna accept it.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

That is fundamentally the difference. What I tell people is the difference between pain and suffering. Life is full of pain, pain is inevitable, pain is not something to be avoided, but suffering is optional.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 37:04

And so I think that can be a very useful skill for people to practice in your daily lives over the things over which we don't have control. And sometimes it really does feel like our depression is out of our control.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Yeah, but yeah. This sounds like a really fun exercise to do throughout the day to check in and go. I guess it would be whenever I would find myself going, I don't like how things are right now. Whenever I'm yes, in a and whenever I have an inner tantrum going on about yep, tantrum, great word. Right?

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yes, yeah, for me, it's that's not fair. That's not fair. I don't like that. Yeah, that's my inner four-year-old is stamping her foot and saying, This sucks. That's not fair. And when there's something I can do about it, do it. But if there's nothing I can do about it, then that's our opportunity to practice radical acceptance and turn suffering just into pain, which is a part of being human.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Oh, this is good. This is refreshing. I feel uh feel good at that. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for thank you for coming on and talking, coming back and talking about sad, sad depression.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Sad sad things. Yes. Anytime. I'm always here to brighten your day.

unknown 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Um, so if people are gonna want to um find out more about you, where are they going?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, so you're gonna go to dr lauriebruce.com. Um, I have a website, I have a podcast from both sides of the couch. But the best way to uh to learn more about me, um, did I say from best sides of the couch? I meant from both sides of the couch. I don't know what I said, but I think you said that's where you would find me for my podcast. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Um, and are you also on the best side of the couch? Are you on both the best and both?

SPEAKER_01 38:59

I'm on the best side.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Which side is the best? The one where you're laying down talking about your woes, or the one where you're listening and advising?

SPEAKER_01 39:07

You know, that's a that's a great question. They're both the best.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

So we're going to dr lauriebruce.com. That's where we're going to learn more about you.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 39:16

Um, thank you. Thank you, Lori. I appreciate this.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Thank you, Russ. Always, always a pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Man, that was super helpful, super enlightening. I love having conversations with Dr. Laurie. I've been poking around the DBT landscape since our conversation, and it is fascinating. Radical acceptance for the win. What are you guys gonna do? What are you gonna radically accept this week? It's interesting because the uh the feeling happens first, right? Like the I'm not anticipating uh and acting all prepared for it. It's it's a surprise. I'm it's the pr this practice of radically accepting the overwhelm feelings from having too much going on. And it's when I catch myself. How soon can I catch myself and radically accept it? It's been helping me. I'm a fan. Alrighty, guys. You can learn more about Dr. Lori by visiting the links in the show notes. Uh go to dr lauriebruce.com and her podcast from both sides of the couch. Check it in. Uh, I also have all the suicide prevention information down there if you need it. Uh and with that, hope you all have a fantastic week.